Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

26

So...Did Judas Leave Before the Lord's Evening Meal?

by undercover in

jw
friends

yes, it's that time of year, once again, when the society starts reliving jesus' last few days on earth as a human.... in addition to all the propaganda about the 144,000 and only they being "allowed" to partake of jesus' blood and body at the annual jw deny christ ritual...another jw teaching, though not as dissected, is the teaching that judas iscariot left the room before the bread and wine were shared with the apostles.. it's important to jw doctrine that this be the case.

because only those who make up the true christian congregation, the annointed, the first of these the faithful apostles, are to partake of these emblems.

if jesus was already aware of judas' plan to betray him and yet judas was present for this new, important ritual, it would be rendered useless by his partaking.

Olin Moyles Ghost

This is an interesting point. The verses cited in Matthew don't seem to support the Society's explanation either. See Matt. 26:25-35:

25 By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].”
26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “T AKE , eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU ; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I tell YOU , I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.” 30 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus said to them: “All of YOU will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’ 32 But after I have been raised up, I will go ahead of YOU into Gal´i·lee.” 33 But Peter, in answer, said to him: “Although all the others are stumbled in connection with you, never will I be stumbled!” 34 Jesus said to him: “Truly I say to you, On this night, before a cock crows, you will disown me three times.” 35 Peter said to him: “Even if I should have to die with you, I will by no means disown you.” All the other disciples also said the same thing.

Of course, there is a passage that the Society uses to support its teaching that Judas left the last supper before the disciples ate the bread and drank the wine: John 13:26-30:

26 Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car´i·ot. 27 And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.” 28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: “Buy what things we need for the festival,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night.

My understanding is that the "morsel" described in verses 26 and 30 is not the communion bread of which J.C. and the apostles partook. I always understood that that the morsel was just part of the regular meal.

Anyway, it looks like Luke and John are in conflict (or more bluntly, they are contradictory). Hence the Society explains it away by saying that Luke's account is not in chronological order. Now what sense does that make?

9

Do Witness think they are fooling Jehovah when women teach at the meetings?

by I quit! in

jw
friends

the witnesses claim to follow the bible and believe women are not to teach in the congregation.

when they give women parts on the meeting they try to get around this by having them pretend that they are just talking to each other and the audience is just overhearing a conversation between them when in fact they are teaching.

do they thing they are pulling one over on jehovah?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Thank you for pointing this out! It's just another example of how the Watchtower picks and chooses which verses to take literally. In the NWT, 1 Cor. 14:34-35 states:

let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says.If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.

Isn't it interesting that when Paul clearly says to "keep silent," the Witnesses don't teach that this means keep COMPLETELY silent. Rather, they rationalize their modern practice of allowing women to comment and have parts on meetings.

But the Witnesses are inconsistent in this practice. Compare Acts 15:28-29 where Paul says to 'abstain from blood.' The Witnesses infer that he means to abstain COMPLETELY from blood--including transfusions. How can they take Acts 15 literally, but apply modern sensibilities to their interpretation of 1 Cor. 14?

Isn't it interesting how they pick and choose? The sad thing is that people have died because of the picking and choosing of Watchtower leaders.

16

1874-1914-2014

by diamondiiz in

jw
friends

so what do you guys think the next major lie will be?

or should i say wt light getting brighter teaching?

they had to change 1874 to 1914 since it didn't have anything to be backed by but 1914 they at least based it on 537bc minus this plus that blah blah blah we got 1914 (hide the pyramid measurments) :) if 1914 comes and goes they will have to do something major!

Olin Moyles Ghost

1914 is not going away in our lifetime. Since the 1995 generation change, it has been neutered, but this will allow it to last that much longer.

Think about this: the 7th Day Adventists still teach that Jesus began an invisible period of investigative judgment in 1844--that is 165 years ago! And the Adventists are still alive and kicking. So, I think 1914 still has plenty of "legs" so to speak.

Also, you have to put yourself in the mindset of a JW when you think about this stuff. To most of us, each day that passes without "The End" coming is one more nail in the coffin of Watchtower false prophecy. But for your average JW, each day that passes is one day closer to The End; and each day that passes contains more bad news that further affirms "the urgency of the times in which we live" and "the nearness of The End of this Wicked System of Things."

16

1874-1914-2014

by diamondiiz in

jw
friends

so what do you guys think the next major lie will be?

or should i say wt light getting brighter teaching?

they had to change 1874 to 1914 since it didn't have anything to be backed by but 1914 they at least based it on 537bc minus this plus that blah blah blah we got 1914 (hide the pyramid measurments) :) if 1914 comes and goes they will have to do something major!

Olin Moyles Ghost

First, I think 2014 will have absolutely nothing to do with anything. Yes, it's 100 years after 1914, and it will give folks like us more ammunition to mock and ridicule the WTS (as if we needed any more of that). But there's nothing in JW end-times theology that has any relation to 2014.

As to any future changes, I think we might see the WTS distancing itself from some of its less-tenable prophetic interpretations (I'm trying to say this nicely). We saw a bit of this already in 2007 with the Society admitting that they can't really say that the heavenly calling was completed in 1935. (Of course, the REAL reason for this likely had to do with the fact that none of the current GB began partaking before 1935--in fact, several were not even born!). But the 1935 date had absolutely no basis in scripture, and the society got rid of it in 2007. This may be a sign of things to come.

For example, we might see the WTS distancing itself from its embarrassing doctrine that the 7 trumpet blasts of Revelation were 7 district conventions in the 1920s. They may already be doing this. In the current study edition of the WT (or perhaps last month's edition), there's an article about Revelation. The article mentions the trumpet blasts in vague terms without specifically identifying the district conventions as their interpretation. (if anybody has an electronic copy of this article, perhaps you could paste these paragraphs) This could be paving the way for "new light."

Also, it would not shock me to see the WTS admit that 144,000 may not be a literal number. There's not much to lose with this one. The WTS could still say that it's a small group compared to the Great Crowd, just that it may not be exactly 144,000.

Finally, it is possible that in about 15 years or so the WTS may start hinting at the date 2034, as described by villabolo above. There's no way they'll do it now because it's too far off (gotta keep that urgency). But they may start doing it around 2025 or so. If they do this, it will likely be handled like 1975--nothing definitive in print, but lots of *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* inferences and perhaps some wild statements from the stage.

17

Congregation politics are so bitter precisely because the stakes are so low

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

jw
friends

though i've never been an elder (thank god), i was raised by one and know several.

it has been my observation that there is a tremendous amount of politics on bodies of elders.

this is probably not a news flash to most of you.. there is a saying that "academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so low.

Olin Moyles Ghost

@snakes: I love the Youtube/Survivor idea. Get a bunch of guys in polyester neckties and short-sleeve dress shirts in a room arguing over whether to have the pre-memorial "spring cleaning" at 12:30 or 1:00 on Saturday...

17

Congregation politics are so bitter precisely because the stakes are so low

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

jw
friends

though i've never been an elder (thank god), i was raised by one and know several.

it has been my observation that there is a tremendous amount of politics on bodies of elders.

this is probably not a news flash to most of you.. there is a saying that "academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so low.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Though I've never been an elder (thank God), I was raised by one and know several. It has been my observation that there is a tremendous amount of politics on bodies of elders. This is probably not a news flash to most of you.

There is a saying that "academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so low." This is sometimes referred to as Sayre's Law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre's_Law). I think this could apply to elder bodies as well.

Think about it, most bodies are made up of working-class middle-aged guys who have little "power" out in the real world. But in the congregation, it's different--they have positions of authority and power. So, if anyone or anything is perceived to threaten this position, things can get ugly in a hurry. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, the stakes are tremendously low...but that's why elder body politics are so bitter.

65

Left the WT but why the loss of your faith in God?

by Luo bou to in

jw
friends

sure the wt deceived you with its claim to be god's channel but why for so many is there a subsequent loss of faith in god ?

it puzzles me and makes me wonder why they were jw's in the first place..

Olin Moyles Ghost

Lots of good comments on this thread--in particular, those of GaryBuss and Iquit.

This may sound strange, and it certainly doesn't apply to every JW, but I think that a lot of Witnesses are actually not very religious. I know I wasn't, and the same with most of my JW friends. JW-ism is much more like a job than a religion. You attend business meetings, make sales calls, and turn in monthly time sheets. (GaryBuss points this out quite often on his threads). There's lots of office politics, and you get "promoted" if you have good numbers...and brown-nosing the bosses helps, too.

And when it comes to theology, lots of Witnesses self-identify based on what they don't believe (trinity, hell, soul) than what they do believe. JWs (at least the ones I know) love to mock "born-agains" and ridicule their teachings as stupid and contradictory (e.g., how can Jesus be his own Father?). This leaves former JWs primed to become secular humanists. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins, the JWs were already atheists about lots of gods (including the Trinitarian god of Christendom)...now they're just going one god further.

40

"And how old is the Proclaimers book?"

by passwordprotected in

i had a frank discussion with my parents yesterday that ended up in the cul-de-sac of "how did the organisation start?

" i told them that all they need to know about the origins of the org are in the proclaimers book, of how chuck started his own religion, or how he got his ideas from the adventists and a lovely fellow called barbour and how chuck preached that christ had returned in 1874 and that the last days had started in 1799.. my parents were unwilling to accept this, so i said, "read your proclaimers book!

y'know what my mum's answer to that was?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Like you said , even if it had been written in the 1980s, so what? I would think that a history book that was written closer to the point in time discussed would be more accurate--not less accurate!

It's also interesting that your parents seem to consider WT literature from the 1980s as "old light." You know, the '80s weren't that long ago. I guess Watchtower literature should be sold in the dairy section of the grocery store...it doesn't take long for it to "go bad."

Also, aren't you DF'd/DA'd? Interesting that your JW parents are (1) speaking to you; and (2) speaking about spiritual things to you. I guess they're not toeing the line on shunning. That's a good thing.

45

i am 20 minutes away from a sheparding call........

by oompa in

jw
friends

first one in at least 5 years.......wife does not want to sit in and i just told her if she does not, then i am not either.....this loss of faith thingy has really been rough on our marriage.......i have decided to not bring up a single issue i have........i will relate to them my illustration of the taxi driver who keeps giving out bad directions i posted yesterday.......i think what will surprise them maybe is that my loss of faith goes way beyond wt.......i have lost virtually faith in the bible and god......one has already told the "first place to start is to get going to the meetings again!"....lmao!!!.........

i hope their programed brains can grasp that maybe you need faith in a god first.....then find out what method (or book) he is using to educate us if he wants to....and then if you feel the need....look around to find out if there is a group of folks who all have similar beliefs.........this should be interesting...........oompa.

Olin Moyles Ghost

You've got to let us know how the sheep-herding call goes. Did you or Mrs. Oompa ask for this call? Or is it a result of the recent WT about trying to re-activate those who have drifted away? Or perhaps they were just so excited to see you at the meeting a couple weeks back!

I have one concern: Can they DF you for saying that you have lost faith in the Bible and God? From reading other people's experiences on this site, it appears that they can DF you if you say that you don't believe the GB/WTS is the Faithful and Discreet Slave...and it seems to me that if you don't have faith that the Bible is God's word, then you probably don't believe in the FDS, right? Then, couldn't they DF you for that?

Gotta be "cautious as serpents" in these situations if you want to fade...

7

Why don't JWs follow Christ's ENTIRE command at Matt. 28:19-20?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

jw
friends

jws take a great deal of pride in the fact that they follow jesus' command at matt.

go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,teaching them to observe all the things i have commanded you.

i am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.. .

Olin Moyles Ghost

JWs take a great deal of pride in the fact that they follow Jesus' command at Matt. 28:19-20:

Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU . And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

They claim that the JWs must be the true religion because there is no other organized religion in which all members participate in a "preaching and disciple-making work." In particular, JWs criticize other religions that delegate the preaching and disciple-making to a clergy class.

But if you read the verses carefully, you can see that there is a portion of Jesus' command that most JWs have no share in--"baptizing them..." Yes, the WT/JW religion delegates the responsibility for baptism to two or three brothers at a circuit assembly or district convention.

If Jesus' command at Matt. 28:19-20 is a non-delegable duty personally directed to each individual Christian, how can the Witnesses delegate the responsibility for "baptizing" to a small group of men? It seems inconsistent to apply the "disciple-making" portion of the command to individuals, but allow the "baptizing" portion to be delegated. What scriptural support exists for this arbitrary distinction?